Magic Item Creation

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Magic Item Creation

Post by ^^Truth on 17th December 2008, 2:36 am

This thread is for discussion of possible magic item creation methods we can use that everyone will be happy with, will not limit PCs with the magic item creation feats and will address any possible magic item spammage problems.

Discuss. I will post a little later after this with any ideas I come up with.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by ^^Truth on 17th December 2008, 2:41 am

I will start now that I have entertained the idea of removing all magic item creation feats and going back to the 2nd edition system of introducing a spell called "Enchant an Item".

Enchant an Item allowed wizards to make basically whatever they wanted once they had a spell, and even GAINED XP doing so, but required a quest of sorts to make the more exotic things.

Belt of Giant Strength (Hill)? hair from a hill giant.
Flaming Longsword? Essence of a Fire Elemental.

That sorta crap.

The problem with this is that it's nice to allow low level mages to make some basic enchantments on things, experiment and so on, such as Quills of Annotation and the like.

There could be a Lesser, normal and Greater I guess. 3rd, 6th and 9th respectfully, or something.


Edit: Note: Also introduces mages gathering more interesting materials and bits of creatures in advance.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by Tromador on 17th December 2008, 2:46 am

I just don't see it working like that, back in 2nd Ed in all the years I played of it, not once did a player make an item.

Why? Because the questing and research was so time consuming. It doesn't just affect the item creator, but the whole party.

Example: Arman says "I want a flaming chain of burny death!"

Lim says "fine... we will need to go and quest for fire elementals."

Party says "And how long will this take and what's in it for us?"

Unless you can engage the whole group in the quest, it is unlikely to happen.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by ^^Truth on 17th December 2008, 2:50 am

This is for everyone. Constructive critism (hell just critism) is obviously required, but if people do not input any creativity or ideas into this thread, then this will not be resolved one way or another.

Edit:

Just want to add. That this comment is not aimed entirely at the above post. I noticed that on the houserules thread, instead of going through and discussing ideas/changes and the like, people were in general just critical of any points made.

I think that's half of being English mind.


Last edited by ^^Truth on 17th December 2008, 3:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by The Dark Power on 17th December 2008, 2:55 am

My take is that there should not be a blanket rule, rather the feats should be allowed if it suits a certain campaign, i.e.

Planescape - make anything you like! (my caveat being they should all have a 'planar' feel, perhaps requiring odd but not difficult to get components).

Ravenloft - no creation feats, but quest/creation of special items would be allowed. This should be tied into the overarching story of an adventure though.

Faerun is slightly more difficult in that 2nd ed was low magic, 3/3.5 is high magic and I think people have very different views as to which they prefer.

Either way we need to decide how it'll be done per campaign and before the campaign starts to avoid the kind of discussions we've previously had.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by Tromador on 17th December 2008, 3:10 am

The difficulty is.... well actually the difficulty is the difficulty.

Limits vs Spammage.

The harder it is to make an item, the more limiting it is, and vice versa. Right now, in our present campaign, it's actually hugely difficult to make an item, due to limits imposed by the DMs in terms of time and/or materials. Let's face it, Lim took the feat at 5th level and has used it twice.

Conversely, the easier it is, the more spammage there is. We could be good guys in Waterdeep with easy access to all the nice shops and in that case Lim can cookie cutter items out once every few days.

Neither of these extremes are actually good. I'm (obviously Smile) somewhat frustrated by what appears to be a (largely) wasted feat, whilst no DM wants a production line of items being produced.

A better way of dealing with it might be to state that a wizard can produce a specified number of items in a specified length of time (be that once a year, once a month or whatever). Don't charge a feat for doing this, but do require certain particular spells. Don't require downtime, the wizard keeps the base item with him and is assumed to spend a few minutes each day pouring a little magic into it. Materials should be reasonable to obtain without excessive questing for the majority of items, reserving long winded adventuring only for the most powerful of effects.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by The Dark Power on 17th December 2008, 3:21 am

That's as may be, but if I'm running a Ravenloft campaign then there's no way you'd be spamming any magical items out, and I wouldn't place any materials/time restrictions on it, I'd just tell you up front not to bother taking the feats.

If it don't suit the campaign then it don't suit the campaign.

I think if you allow it then you allow it as it is in the PHB, or you don't allow it at all. You do need to tell the PCs before you start what you intend though.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by Tromador on 17th December 2008, 3:38 am

That's fine for your hypothetical Ravenloft campaign.

However - what I perceive is a desire (for our general games) that players should be able to make items and a feeling amongst (at least half) the regulars that the standard method is too easy.

Yet at the same time, the impositions are making it actually incredibly difficult.

Hence we need some agreed rules, so that everyone knows where they stand, as you say, at the start and nobody (in either camp, for want of a better term) is feeling hard done by.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by ^^Truth on 17th December 2008, 4:01 am

Having set rules per campaign is perfect indeed! Ravenloft low magic, planescape/faerun high, etc!

Except what if I believe ravenloft is high magic?

It's perfect to have set rules for campaigns, but they require solo DMs. With your Ravenloft example Joe, you're welcome to set those rules, but only if you're the main (basically solo) DM, if you have a group of DMs (like we have now), I'm afraid you require a general blanket rule unless you can get everyone to agree with your view (impossible in this group), which can of course be changed by anyone running a solo campaign (just as every other rule).

Right now, we have a mixed DM campaign, thus we require a general blanket rule, that would extend over into other multiple DM campaigns, which COULD be adjusted slightly to suit the setting (I.E. lower for Ravenloft, non-existant for Darksun).

It's worth trying to work this out however, because right now, the magic item feats cause and create friction and have been for sometime.

Going off what Trom said, I did have another idea. You simple take a feat that allows you to create ALL magical items, BUT you can only make as many as your PRIMARY stat. Thus a wizard takes Craft Magical Equipment, he has INT 16, throughout his career he can only make a maximum of 16 magic items in total, but any he wishes.

Later on he raises his INT to 18, and thus can make two additional magical items.

This would totally remove spammage, because said wizard isn't going to want to be chucking out swords +1 for his henchmen, when he knows he wants some Robes of the Archmagi at 17th, or perhaps a Lich's Phylactery, BUT would allow the wizard to still make whatever he wished.

Is that idea closer or futher away from acceptable from my initial idea, so I can try to judge where we are heading here.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by Tromador on 17th December 2008, 4:06 am

Not at the cost of a feat. No other feat has use limitations. Otherwise, it's intriguing.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by The Dark Power on 17th December 2008, 5:02 am

I was actually referring to Ravenloft campaigns I've run for Iain and Mike in the past.

The point I was trying to make is you're gonna have a different set up depending on the idea for the campaign. We can agree something now, but then it won't be appropriate for the next one we run, whether it's multi-DM or not.

I wasn't suggesting we should have set rules per campaign as in the past we've had both low magic and 'regular' magic campaigns in the same settings - you need to tailor it to the campaign idea.

As nothing was decided before this campaign my preference would be to have things as per the PHB for this campaign then tailor our requirements to whatever setting we go for next.

At least that way we'll be able to see if people do indeed spam it or if it actually turns out OK.

Tromador wrote:That's fine for your hypothetical Ravenloft campaign.

However - what I perceive is a desire (for our general games) that players should be able to make items and a feeling amongst (at least half) the regulars that the standard method is too easy.

Yet at the same time, the impositions are making it actually incredibly difficult.

Hence we need some agreed rules, so that everyone knows where they stand, as you say, at the start and nobody (in either camp, for want of a better term) is feeling hard done by.

Whatsisname wrote:Having set rules per campaign is perfect indeed! Ravenloft low magic, planescape/faerun high, etc!

Except what if I believe ravenloft is high magic?

It's perfect to have set rules for campaigns, but they require solo DMs. With your Ravenloft example Joe, you're welcome to set those rules, but only if you're the main (basically solo) DM, if you have a group of DMs (like we have now), I'm afraid you require a general blanket rule unless you can get everyone to agree with your view (impossible in this group), which can of course be changed by anyone running a solo campaign (just as every other rule).

Right now, we have a mixed DM campaign, thus we require a general blanket rule, that would extend over into other multiple DM campaigns, which COULD be adjusted slightly to suit the setting (I.E. lower for Ravenloft, non-existant for Darksun).
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by Tromador on 17th December 2008, 6:03 am

Notwithstanding cost/availability/time I thought we were doing PHB this time around.

What we have is essentially DM imposed limits.

It's hard for me to comment without sound pissy and I'm really trying to avoid coming across as the wounded party...

But as far as spammage goes, it ain't possible under present circumstances.

Or maybe actually we aren't going by PHB, when even in waterdeep stuff is essentially so much more expensive (like quadruple costs on 4th level spells).

It's hard being a wizard when everything you wanna buy is inflated cost.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by ^^Truth on 17th December 2008, 6:16 am

I am, to be honest, happy to go with basic PHB/DMG rules, if only to see how/where things pan out.

My only concern would be that things spiral out of control and basically make things harder for a DM, when all the PCs powerup 2-3 ranks during a time out period.

There's a selection of magic items that Limnoch can create, that would really create a major impact on Arman's fighting abilities and Arman's fighting abilities are pretty damn good already.

That does kinda say something. I must say, it would be interesting.

Then again, Xavus was allowed mostly free reign creation of items and look what happened to him/Diedne.

Edit :

Just want to stress the point though, if we do remove all control over magic item creation (as it were), then it does have the potential to ruin the campaign.

Also, I want to add that, if we attempt to tailor any form of magic item creation rules to each individual campaign, then we're going to go through all of this every time.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by illumination on 17th December 2008, 9:31 am

two quick points.

firstly, i entirely agree with joe that it is rather pointless working out a set in stone system for all campaigns in advance, given that there indeed has to be a vastly different amount of magic between one campaign setting and the next. ravenloft and planescape are good examples. no set up we come up with will ever be appropriate for both.

secondly, i struggle to see limnoch as a badly wronged party in the current campaign, having made two items already, bearing a hefty shopping list with lots of resources its only a matter of time before the value of that feat is the best value of any in the book. i wonder trom what you would describe as a 'par' number of items after having the feat this long. how many more than two is it?

but, thats going off on a tangent somewhat but i felt i had to respond to that.

as to the solution (for faerun) i think it probably lies in a higher xp cost and a lengthier time required. xp is not something that can be bought, and neither is time. if it really diminishes a mage's power to knock out +1 swords, they will be inclined to only create items that are important, and worth it.

as to how that might work, im thinking xp goes up a bit and the time goes up a lot.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by Tromador on 17th December 2008, 11:20 am

Simple question really Mike, and it's not about numbers of items.

Why was this not raised as a potential issue when I took the feat? Why only now after the fact? Everyone knew I had taken it. It was on my character sheet and I even RP'd for some time studying books on the subject.

That's what really upsets me. The apparent sudden shock that I'm actually wanting to use my feat and the arguments therein.

I honestly wish I had never bothered with it in the first place and repeat again, my suggestion that I replace it with something else and the two minor items so far enchanted have their magics removed. I think that really is the best idea. I'm completely bloody sick of this animosity.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by The Dark Power on 17th December 2008, 7:36 pm

It's difficult to really argue with Troms point there (not that I want to).

It keeps being said 'this is a problem', but I don't actually see any drawbacks yet. This seems similar to 5' step rule - everyones crying this might be a problem, but there isn't actually any evidence to show that it is.

I really think we should run this as a test - let's allow the creation of items as per the feat and the PHB then we'll actually have a benchmark as to whether the rules are unbalanced or not.

I know it might ruin the campaign (I'm not convinced), but why do we always go crazy on 'might'? Why not 'has' or 'will'?


Last edited by The Dark Power on 18th December 2008, 1:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by Tromador on 17th December 2008, 9:50 pm

Tromador wrote:I'm completely bloody sick of this animosity.

By which I meant to say acrimony - anomosity the wrong/too strong a word.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by illumination on 18th December 2008, 3:56 am

im baffled a bit by the last couple of reactions, im sure i said this before in the previous thread but ill go again.

we are not talking about changing it now. limnochs uneffected by everything we talk about. he is getting normal PHB rules and anything decided here has nothing to do with this campaign.

so, given the above. where is the acrimony? to be honest, i thought the acrimony, if there was any of it at all was stefs stuff about limnoch being unfairly treated after the event, not been warned etc etc. if that hadnt been mentioned, (twice) i wouldnt have said a thing about limnoch as that is not the purpose of this thread. i just happened to disagree with that premise. ^^

not in an acrimonious way though. Smile

so. can we start again, with less hysteria and put our colours to the mast on what happens in the future? i guess we are deciding things for new campaigns in a faerun type medium magic setting. (unless by some miracle we are 100% unanimous about the new rules and can agree to put them in now. - unlikely in the extreme me thinks so lets not worry too much about that.)
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by The Dark Power on 18th December 2008, 4:21 am

Think this bit is why it was assumed you still wanted to change things for the current campaign, p'raps 'for future faerun campaigns' mighta been better ;0)

Shockingly, it does look like we all agree then that the current campaign should be left to PHB rules!

I'm gonna have this thread framed!!

illumination wrote:two quick points.
as to the solution (for faerun) i think it probably lies in a higher xp cost and a lengthier time required. xp is not something that can be bought, and neither is time. if it really diminishes a mage's power to knock out +1 swords, they will be inclined to only create items that are important, and worth it.

as to how that might work, im thinking xp goes up a bit and the time goes up a lot.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by illumination on 18th December 2008, 4:26 am

i hadnt realised it had been so long since i explicitly stated in the last thread related to this that we will not change the rules on limnoch after the event. i think to be honest everyone likes a good row. thats the only explaination i can come up with. Wink
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by ^^Truth on 18th December 2008, 4:32 am

FUCK YOU ALL, LOSERS! I DISAGREE!

Smile
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by The Dark Power on 18th December 2008, 4:32 am

There's more than one thread on this?

We all know you hate wizards, magic and the world at large, you may as well come clean.
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by The Dark Power on 18th December 2008, 4:34 am

Actually, I had awanted a rant, but didn't want it misconstrued. Since you've started the ball rolling....

FUCK YOU ALL FUCKING CUNT FACED TOSS BAG ARSEHOLE BUNCH OF CUNTS!

CUNT!

CUNT!

FAT FUCKING CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT!!!
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by The Dark Power on 18th December 2008, 4:35 am

Oh, and BALLS
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Re: Magic Item Creation

Post by illumination on 22nd December 2008, 6:28 am

well. thats the end of that thread. nice work dude. Smile
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